You're Unwelcome

I'm kind of a flame-thrower and grenade kind of person, sometimes. Broad, impassioned strokes rather than fine lines and hair splitting. I like to engage in heated debate and try to persuade, and cooler heads be damned! This is my temperament. Sometimes, it helps motivate and puts a fire under someone to act (this is actually what I get paid pretty well to do) and sometimes this temperament can be a bit scorching and alienating. Then I spend a lot of time clarifying and apologizing.

Today, I'm going to try to be cool-headed and careful with this post. I want feedback, but I am specifically requesting that the feedback be constructive, and not turn into a malebashfest. "All men suck! Down with men!" I've discussed before the undercurrent of rage many women feel, just under the surface, and know that topics like this can bring that up. But if we want to shed some light on this important topic, I do ask that the heat be turned down and the pots be put on at least simmer.

The topic is a continuation of yesterday's post about victimization and empowerment. Today I want to talk about a "hostile environment" (whether that's at the office, walking down the street, in your own home, at clubs, online, everywhere.)

For the purpose of this discussion, I'm going to define "hostile environment" as a stressful environment created by: 1) severe or pervasive conduct from a man 2) of a sexual nature (or would only be directed at a woman) 3) that is unwelcome (i.e. not solicited or encouraged) and 3) that a reasonable woman* would find offensive.

Severe or pervasive: one incident can be enough if it is egregious. But usually, we're talking about a noticeable pattern of sexual or gender-related conduct.

Of a sexual nature: the comment/behavior relates to sexuality or is directed towards a person just because of her gender. (The commenter wouldn't make the same comment to a man who was similarly situated.)

Unwelcome: the comment/conduct is not requested, invited or encouraged. If a woman puts up half-nekkid pictures of herself, she would be unreasonable in objecting if people commented about the appearance of her body or made sexual comments. What the woman generally wants to hear in that instance is how hot she is. Or, a woman at work actively participating (like telling her own raunchy jokes) in sexual jokes would have a hard time convincing people later that similar sexual joking by a male co-worker was unwelcome.

Offensive to a reasonable woman in that position. This is tricky. On the one hand, some people are "hyper-sensitive" and will get insulted/offended by anything. On the other hand, as I wrote about yesterday, reasonable men and reasonable women will differ as to what is offensive or not. This, again, is because of context.

(or insert other protected class here -- reasonable person of color, reasonable person with a disability, reasonable gay person, etc. though in this post is addressing gender relations specifically.)

Men and women generally have different perspectives. Conduct that many men consider unobjectionable may offend many women. I'm excerpting some information below from a sexual harassment case arising out of California about 10 years ago (Ellison v Brady).

A male supervisor might believe, for example, that it is legitimate for him to tell a female employee that she has a 'great figure' or 'nice legs.' The female employee, however, may find such comments offensive.

Men tend to view some forms of sexual harassment as harmless, amusing social interactions to which only overly-sensitive women would object.

However, many women share common concerns which men do not necessarily share. For example, because women are disproportionately victims of rape and sexual assault, women have a stronger incentive to be concerned with sexual behavior. Women who are victims of mild forms of sexual harassment may understandably worry whether a harasser's conduct is merely a prelude to violent sexual assault. Men, who are rarely victims of sexual assault, may view sexual conduct in a vacuum without a full appreciation of the social setting or the underlying threat of violence that a woman may perceive.

One writer explains: "While many women hold positive attitudes about uncoerced sex, their greater physical and social vulnerability to sexual coercion can make women wary of sexual encounters. Moreover, American women have been raised in a society where rape and sex-related violence have reached unprecedented levels, and a vast pornography industry creates continuous images of sexual coercion, objectification and violence.

Finally, women as a group tend to hold more restrictive views of both the situation and type of relationship in which sexual conduct is appropriate. Because of the inequality and coercion with which it is so frequently associated in the minds of women, the appearance of sexuality in an unexpected context or a setting of ostensible equality can be an anguishing experience. Abrams, Gender Discrimination and the Transformation of Workplace Norms, 42 Vand.L.Rev. 1183, 1203-05 (1989)(emphasis added).

With this backdrop in mind, my friend Edge posted the following comment yesterday:

I do not hit on women, here or anywhere, and I do not behave inappropriately, here or anywhere. But when you primp and powder up and look good to yourself in the mirror, you look good to me too and I very well may tell you so as I compliment many of you here, not only on your looks if you post photos, but on what you say, how you say it. Simply said, you strive to look lovely, your best, I'm going to notice, not just your girl parts, but the whole woman package. And I would expect you to receive my honest complimentary assessment as graciously as it was given, regardless of the attribute of yours I was commenting favorably upon. I am crass or disrespectful, have at me. We all, hopefully if we are prideful, strive to put our best masculine or feminine foot forward and I think it's as inate as a cardinal's red feathers.

Edge is quick to assess his own behavior and conclude that he does not behave inappropriately, here or anywhere, but then says he is quick with the compliment about a woman's appearance. And that he is polite and well-meaning. I have never experienced him to be otherwise. (And he is a wonderful writer, to boot!)

But the point I believe Edge may be missing, is that given the different context of many women's lives and realities, even the most gentlemanly, well-meaning, sincere compliment may be unwelcome and unsettling. Again, without male bashing, without Edge-bashing (this is not personal; I am using his comment as a springboard to a broader discussion) is there anyone who can help me out with examples, experiences that have been well-meaning but made you feel threatened or very uncomfortable enough to feel you were experiencing a hostile environment?

I consider myself VERY fortunate that (at least as an adult) I have not been subjected to serious physical sexual harassment or assault or a "quid pro quo" type workplace harassment where the perpetrator knew damn well what he was doing and intended intimidation. Most unwelcome, offensive conduct has occurred for me from very well-meaning, nice, gentlemanly men. Here are some I have experienced:

• Whistles/comments on the street (though the older I get, I gotta tell you, the more welcome this is)
• Being grabbed/fondled by significant others just when walking by -- if unwelcome, unanticipated, this can seem violating. We're not all always ready, all the time and yes, I believe women can be sexually harassed in their own homes.
• Having a co-worker or boss make a comment about my appearance, body or clothes beyond "you look nice today!" or "great shoes!" There's a "vibe," that is given off with a lingering look, a boundary that is crossed that I can't articulate very well (but know every woman knows what I am talking about) where you just kind of shudder, think "ick" and cover yourself up.
• Having a good friend's boyfriend tell me how desirable I was when we were sitting in a hot tub together. This ruined my friendship with the woman, as I could not stand to be around him.
• Obviously, sexist comments or a hypersexualized atmosphere at someone's house (Playboy magazines everywhere, etc.)
• Receiving personal (as opposed to general) comments of a sexual nature in response to a non-sexual topic, even on this blog. This is generally unwelcome (unless you are my husband or we are flirting, we, back and forth) and jarring. I put this as  # 20 on my How To Be a Blogging Loser post.

Side note: Why is it that a man can walk around nude or just in his boxers at home alone and just be, but when a woman is nude or scantily clad or in a bathing suit (and not in a "come hither" way, but just hanging out) -- that this fact alone is sexualized? Like merely having a female body is an invitation for comment or grabbing? IT IS NOT!

Often, I like to go out in baggy dark clothes, glasses and a pony tail, no make up, big combat boots . . . to avoid the stares, the sexual (or just "complimentary") comments. It is such a violation. Even when I put on make up, put my contacts in, wear closer-fitting clothes, that is not an invitation for inappropriate touching or comments. It is welcome when it is invited, encouraged. Merely looking a certain way  does not, in itself, constitute an invitation. I feel like Jessica Rabbit: "I'm not bad, I'm just drawn that way . . ."

Of course, when I'm in my badass androgynous outfits and mentality, sometimes I get the equally uninvited comment: "Smile, honey!" If it's an elder gentleman, I let it slide. But for younger ones, I sometimes tell them my mother just died, and they'd be upset too, and they should mind their own business. Like I said, rage, right under this placid surface . . .

Am I hyper-sensitive? Has anyone else experienced a hostile environment (at work, online, at home, anywhere) due to well-meaning comments or conduct by even the nicest of guys? When? Your comments and experiences (so long as they are constructive and not personally sexual) are welcome, encouraged and invited.

Comments

[Shephard]

I have to admit, Jayne, this topic overwhelms me, because I haven't the foggiest clue as to how anyone can execute any action broad enough to reverse it. Men are surrounded by powerful constructs that teach, excuse and reinforce sexualizing women. Roles are sharply defined in society by the workplace, by politics, by religion and by family tradition... and then it's labeled "a gender issue." It's not. It's a learned behavior that is constantly reinforced. And as long as men are holding the joystick of power, I don't think it's going to change much. I can tell you that it's not the world I would choose to live in, if I had a choice. I'm sick of violence. Sick of it.

Men have a solid footing of control. Women need to pull together in numbers to make changes, or it will stay this way. And one fantastic place to start would be to quit buying fashion magazines, limit spending on cosmetics et al, and stop buying diet products. Take back the power you give out by spending on these types of self-effacing things. These products underscore the sexualization of women. Boycotts don't work. I'm not talking about a boycott. I'm talking about changing values so that they do not align with being sexualized. I know there are smart, intelligent women who already realize this. But if you can't change the men, then you need to make it more uncomfortable for them to sexualize women. And hitting the economy in the pocketbook is a strong message.

Not meaning to trivialize male responsibility. And I'm not saying men don't need to grow up and get a freakin' clue. But change without begins within, and then leads to re-education. I don't see either side budging without some real unified effort. Too many things are holding it in place. I offer this example as one I don't see being deployed currently.

I think the real problem is in teaching what differences between men and women are biological, and which are learned and reinforced. Until that happens, there will be a lot of excuses from both sides.

This is only my opinion. I could be entirely wrong, and anyone is welcome to enlighten me.
~S

[knq]

I am coming back to this one. :)

[Jayne]

Shephard: I think you are completely correct. It is an overwhelming topic and I thank you for your thoughtful response (I think I scared everyone else away!) Everyone needs to become a little stronger, ride against the tide, vote with their dollars. Women need to speak up and be clear and not give mixed messages.

I think what you brought up for me also was this chicken and egg problem of what happens when we sexualize young girls (children) who grow up believing their only worth is in the rewards they get (which are ample) in sexual attention from men. I wonder what the world would look like if American girl babies where whisked away and raised in a utopian all-women society until they turn 14. Kids who aren't bombarded and socialized in the sick way this country does it. That's my wish for all girls - a safe, strong childhood and inner core, where they learn their own inner worth and power, independent of who is looking at them and how.

Anyway, you are right, it takes 2, it takes a transaction, a dance to create this conflict. What happens when 1 person (whether that's the man or the woman) drops out of the dance and decides they want to meet as equals?

KnQ: What? You're not dropping everything in your busy life to respond to my LONG, complex, sensitive post with a solution to all of the country's gender relations issues, in a way that is articulate, inclusive and profound? Shame on you. ; ) Look forward to your return . . .

[Theresa]

Part of the difficulty in dealing with the issue of risk and sexual violence is that there’s no way to identify potential perpetrators. If they all had handy neon “P”s tattooed on their foreheads, it would make it a whole lot easier to distinguish between the good guys and the bad guys. The bottom line is that every man has the power to rape. Most choose not to. Those that do make it difficult for the rest of us, both women and men.

Another part of the problem is that victims are held accountable for the behavior of perpetrators. We’re held accountable for keeping ourselves safe at all times, for knowing what to expect from all men, for behaving in a way that doesn’t give the “wrong” signals. If we don’t, we were “asking for it”. There’s a long tradition of this thinking and it serves two purposes. First, it keeps society from having to deal with the huge problem of gender oppression that contributes to sexual violence. Second, it makes us all feel safer because blaming the victim gives us a sense of control over our environment. All we have to do is say, “I’m not like her, so it won’t happen to me.” Or “We’re not like them, so it won’t happen to us.”

I’ve had a number of disturbing experiences ranging from uncomfortable comments at work to street harassment to rape. One experience was not long ago in a little townie bar. I was dating the bartender at the time. He was working that night, so to a stranger it appeared as if I was there by myself. During the course of the evening, a young man struck up a conversation with me. Eventually, he complemented me on the way I looked. That was my cue to mention that my boyfriend was the bartender. The young man didn’t believe me, and he continued to say things about my appearance. I stepped away, but he followed me. I was firm in telling him that I wasn’t interested, but he persisted. His statements became more bold, offensive, and threatening, eventually evolving into threats of sexual assault. At that point I shouted at him and threatened him back. That got the attention of my bf, who came out from behind the bar. The young man was escorted out, and I was left there feeling embarrassed, humiliated, shaken, and pissed that I was dependent on a man for my safety. I want to live in a world where I’m safe all the time and I don’t need someone to take care of me. I’m a grown woman!!!

When we got home that night, I talked with my boyfriend about what happened. I was surprised by his reaction. He minimized it, said not to worry about it, and asked me why I was talking to the kid in the first place. My bf had a 16-year old daughter. I reminded him that she would be in college bars in a few years and might have to deal with some of the same stuff. He said, “I’m not worried. We raised her right.”

So I wasn’t raised right? This was my fault?

My boyfriend was a really nice guy. He didn’t intend to blame me or make me feel bad for what happened. He was just doing the best he could with the information he’d known his whole life. He wasn’t one of the bad guys, but the way he reacted to me hurt way more than the way the guy in the bar treated me.

Great post Jayne!!!

[Shephard]

When Theresa shared that, it seemed so obvious to me. I don't know why this kind of situation and its ramications aren't more self-evident. ~S

[Dick The Boomer]

In the past I've had experiences where I have found myself suddenly alone with a woman, a stranger, maybe it's dark. And through her body language I have sensed her fear. I resent that. Now I purposely try to avoid situations like that, and I resent the fact I have to do that.

But it's that damn invisible back I'm wearing, isn't it? I didn't put the damn thing on, and I'm going to need some help getting it off.

[Dick The Boomer]

I meant to say invisible backpack, with reference to your "On Being A Woman in America" post. It's too early.

[Theresa]

In response to Dick,
A male friend once asked what he could do to help. I suggested that he move to the other side of the street if he ever found himself walking behind a woman, especially at night. He responded defensively, saying that he wasn't a threat. My point wasn't to reduce the threat of violence, but to reduce the fear of the threat of violence. It matters.

That invisible backpack of yours isn't going to go away in our lifetimes, Dick. Sorry, you're stuck with it. The best you can do is learn about it, adjust your behavior accordingly and pass on that understanding to others.

[Edge]

"sometimes I get the equally uninvited comment: "Smile, honey!" If it's an elder gentleman, I let it slide. But for younger ones, I sometimes tell them my mother just died, and they'd be upset too, and they should mind their own business. Like I said, rage, right under this placid surface . . ."

Because I'm less virile? Less of a threat? Not capable of a strong sexual response? You sayin' I can get away with more just because of my age? How come if an old man calls a young woman honey it's something different? Seems discriminatory to me, ageism, to no longer be seen as a sexual being, just some harmless old coot. Now Jayne, this isn't something I would expect from such a smart, pretty little thing like yourself. Holy hell, I bet I'm not far from being called "a cute little old man".

[Theresa]

Ha! Go Edge!
Sorry Jayne, the man has a point.

[Dick The Boomer]

Theresa, I love ya. I really do. But what we're talking about here is called profiling. I will adjust my behavior accordingly, but I will not accept "you're stuck with it." I'll learn all I can about it and pass on what I've learned, but the burden of taking the damn thing off my back is not 100% my responsibility. That's the point I was trying to make. We (the big we) need some help. I think that's what this discussion is all about. I hope that's the direction it's going.

[Theresa]

I don't think we have the same understanding of the "backpack". If we did, you wouldn't use a term like "profiling". You can't lose your white male priviledge. You didn't ask for it any more than I asked to be born a white woman (and all the associated priviledges and limitations). You can't make every woman feel comfortable being alone with you. Yes, there are things we can all do to help, but it's not going to be fixed in my lifetime.
And I know you love me ... back at'cha!

[Dick The Boomer]

Profiling was probably not an appropriate word. I was trying to make a point. And you're right; it probably won't be fixed in our lifetime. Discussions like this are a start.

[Jayne]

Theresa: My post was about low-level well-meaning but offensive conduct. Your points illustrate so well the underlying terror that women often experience just by collectively being on the wrong side of the power line. It's like that Stanford prison experiment where they took half the guys and made them "prisoners" and half of them were "prison guards" (all the guys were the same, demographically) and the experiment had to be cut short because of the horrific abuses of the "prison guards" and the strange submissive behavior in the "prisoners." In just a matter of days. Anyway, yes male violence (esp. white male violence) is privileged in our society. We blame the victims. However, we also (mostly, and it's getting better) hold perpetrators accountable and protect victims (with criminal laws, prison, rape shield laws [where you can't bring a woman's irrelevant sexual history into a rape case any more], etc.) I think this is getting better.

One little point, though. All persons are responsible for their own behavior. Men and women. I'm not talking about blame, I'm talking about personal responsibility for whatever it is we have control over in their lives.

Dick: I know what you mean. I have experienced that too. Walking home at night behind a woman, watching her tighten up, quicken her pace. (She's too scared to turn around and see I'm a woman.) Sometimes I'll shout out something "funny" (that's how I deflect difficult emotions, with humor, in case you hadn't noticed . . .) like "I'm not following you, I promise!" Then she'll turn around, relieved. Not sure that would work for you, though. I know what you mean, though, and understand that you would feel resentful for merely being who you are -- welcome to my world! ; )

But I hope you arent't taking it personally, and it seems you understand the context better now. Women are disproportionately the victims of sexual violence; we need to be aware at all times of our surroundings, etc. and often the most innocent bystanders are imagined as personally potentially rapists or murderers. Because, like Theresa said, the "real" perps inconveniently don't announce themselves, so just about everyone is seen as a threat. Except if I feel I can "take" him (smaller, weaker-looking than I) then I don't worry so much.

Edge: Ha! Who's baiting whom, now? Sorry if I touched a nerve . . . I was thinking of a specific incident in San Francisco when an older man (80's or '90s) hobbling with a cane said very sweetly "Smile, honey!" This guy was alive before women got the vote. Call it ageist if you want, but I do cut very old men and women slack with their comments and conduct because they were raised in a very different world thein our modern world, and they often just do not know better. (Of course, many do--my grandfather is 85 and SHARP and we debate things all the time) If I think I can teach an old dog new tricks, I'll give it a shot.

And yes, I do see very older, and all physicall weaker people as less of a personal physical threat and I think the statistics bear that out. That's not ageism, it's reality. I am a tall, strong woman. If someone can barely walk, I do not feel threatened by him. Therefore, what he says is not construed by me even subconsciously as a possible prelude to a sexual attack.

Actually, this stance of mine (letting things slide) applies to any situation where I quickly assess the situation and determine to the best of my ability whether the person intended to intimidate, was clueless but can maybe change his behavior, or is so entrenched in a certain worldview that it would be a waste of my time and energy to say anything. I had a case against an arrogant, cocky, racist, sexist asshat a few years ago. He had just been named "Republican of the Year" in our town. The things he said were so outrageous, both generally and personally, that I didn't waste my breath, it would have literally gone in one ear and out the other. Same with REALLY stupid people; they aren't going to grasp the nuances here, why engage in a complex discussion? Yeah, I let it slide unless I feel the person appears receptive and still taking in "new" information.

Dick and Theresa: Bless you both for participating meaningfully in this discussion! The "good guys" are saddened and resentful that they sometimes scare women. Women are saddened and resentful that they live in a violent culture where they are often afraid. I think we CAN help balance the power, and discussions like this CAN help.

What it takes is education, (a majority understanding the context of the unbalanced world in which we live and taking steps to challenge it), personal responsibility and empowerment (including the things Shephard was talking about, and I will add the component of a spiritual or social practice of cultivating compassion) and meaninful consequences for crimes and serious offenses that result from the power imbalance. Once a majority of us sees the matrix of the "prison experiment" in which we are living, we can stop the experiment short and meet as equals.

[Neena]

How nice it would be to save the world single-handedly, eh? You've got a great start here, Jayne. :-) You said it, though, personal responsibility and education (especially through discussion) of both sexes is key, in my opinion.

[Dick The Boomer]

I'm not taking anything personally. I probably overreacted when Theresa said "..you're stuck with it", referring to the invisible backpack of white male power. I thought she was implying, "YOU are the problem. YOU deal with it."

But she was looking at the "backpack" as a fact of life, something she as a woman has to deal with on a daily basis, something that will not quickly or easily go away.

I'm the one with the damn backpack. I am well aware of that. And for that reason I should bear most of the responsibility for helping restore a balance of power. But I guarantee, power will not just be handed over to you willingly or easily - (as if you didn't know that).

[Pops]

I get what you're saying in general.

I agree mostly with your use of the word "context" and lament the fact that we as a culture seem unable to grasp the idea of situational social complexity. The series of personal/professional reactions and counter-reactions as we try to hammer out a balance of acceptibility seems to run too far to one side (draconinan thought-police) or the other (total dismissive anti-PC-specific permissiveness), always just missing the moderate position in the middle, which is (to my mind) "Hey, don't be such a dumbass." That goes for both genders.

I don't mean to make light (this time) but basically what you're saying is that those of us hetero dudes who are into the "baggy dark clothes, glasses and a pony tail, no make up, big combat boots" look are completely hosed.

[Reach]

Jayne, I made attempts to respond to yesterdays article and unfortunately Blogger did not post, so thank you for bringing this issue forward today.
First, I would like to point out the topic of Respect (as I tried yesterday). We should demonstrate respect for those around us; and thereby, avoiding any unfavorable situations. With respect, even the "minor" offense of today, that might be alright on another day and depending on the mood, can be sincerely apologized and forgiven. A demonstration of Self-Respect from the recipient of the offense, would not allow themselve to be in this situation in the first place. I know women, in the military, who recieve respect the moment they enter the room. I think this stems from respect, of both, of the members in the room and the individual's own self-respect.
Of your list: Please remember Respect
- if you are becoming thankful for the "on the street" whistles, is that objectionable?
- significant other fondling, should be reviewed by both parties
- glare from coworker, would it be as offensive if it were a compliment from somebody of the same sex? (if not, then it is offensive)
- the hot tub, unfortunately, your friend's b/f did not show you any respect and your friend should have atleast recognized this issue
- somebody's house/decor, self-respect would not place you in an invironment containing such material, is so remove yourself

- I hope you have not felt any form of harassment from me, here on your site, I do remember that I am only a guest.

You ask if you may be hyper-sensitive, I think you are the only person who can make that judgement. If a situation presents itself and you feel uncomfortable, no matter if you are hyper-sensitive or not, the people around you should afford you the respect, you so richly deserve. You ask for experiences here, or at work, etc. I have sensed and felt a "hostile environment", politically here on your site. Utilizing my Self-Respect, and a Respect for you and your thoughts, I do "over look" these comments. I am a Republican, not too far left or right, and I do not completely agree with all Republicans, nor do I completely agree with all Democrats. So, may I ask you, why do I feel bad when you refer to Republicans? The majority of your ideas, I like and respect. Your ability to write is inspiring for me. Your thoughts, present questions in my mind- that drive me into understanding my own being. Yet, I do feel bad when you write little comments about Republicans. Would this, also, be a form of harassment that would ordinarily be thought of as "little comments"?

Just a thought.

Please continue your thoughts, I do appreciate them.

Reach

[Reach]

May I also add, I was raised to respect all people regardless of Race, Gender, Age, Social Status and to help any one person who asks.

[Jayne]

Neena: Hey, someone's got to do it ; ) Where are those cocktails, anyway? I thought we ordered them DAYS ago?

Dick: No, people in power rarely hand it over willingly. It must be reclaimed (personally, through public/economic/political pressure, etc.) PS one aspect about privilege is the luxury to "care" about an issue one minute, then drop it or forget about it the next minute.

Pops: Yes, the subtleties and complexities of context are rarely appreciated, and we do tend to see those exact extremes, thanks for pointing them out. And, strangely, your second comment was welcomed for reasons beyond my comprehension.

Reach: Thank you for your thoughts on respect. And have I only made "little comments" disparaging Republicans? Let me be clear and make a BIG anti-Republican comment (fair warning, you don't have to keep reading!) This is not personal against you, it is against the party that could care less about you or me (and I am lifting my comment from my comment on Shephard's site where he posted about insulting you there): I honestly feel that anyone who says they are compassionate and wants to fight for individual civil liberties and rights and votes republican is in serious denial. I'm not saying these folks are "bad" people or right-wing psychos, just in denial.

It does take some work to become fully informed and educated about what the current republican party is working for. It is corporate interests, only the concerns of the TOP 1% of the population, and individuals, with their pesky whines for rights and safe/fair labor practices and equality, just get in the way of their agenda.

In terms of the (tired, old, false) concept of "fiscal republicans" they are in denial, too. We had a surplus last time the democrats were in office and demanded a balanced budget. We are now suffering from a reeling multi-billion dollar deficit --the interest alone will break us and our social security is threatened. This is the most fiscally irresponsible administration in our current history.

And in terms of religion - fundamentalist christians are in denial, too, if they vote republican. Jesus would have voted democrat. He washed the feet of lepers, hung out with prostitutes, the sick, poor and dying, talked about the meek, about humilty, about paring down your personal possessions, not building churches, but praying in a closet. Humble before God.

I know plenty of nice, intelligent people who vote republican. But they are ALL -- to a person -- in denial about the party and administration they are currently supporting, which does not give a **** about them (other than their votes.)

And the problem with arguing (no matter how politely) with people who are in denial is that you will just go around and around, until and unless a light goes on (or not) in their heads and they "get" it. Their party doesn't care about them. Their party lied to all Americans and admitted it. Their party is in bed with corporate interests and that is ALL they care about, lining the pockets of the top 1%. That is wrong, that is un-American.

I love this country very much. And I hate what the republican party has been doing to our country -- the environment, the climate of fear, the thousands of lives lost in Iraq, the deficit, my social security, all of it. It makes me WEEP. If you weep too, and still vote republican, you are in denial. If you say you weep but don't really, those are crocodile tears and you are either lying to us or to your self. Where do crocodiles live? De Nile.

***

Again, looking at context in a societal way, those in power really can't be systematically harassed (they can choose to be personally insulted, but that's a choice. I do not pose a physical threat to you, other than blowing your mind . . . )

[Edge]

I'm much less likely to sexually harass a Republican chick. Just sayin'. I slept with one once and I still have nightmares. I just never felt right about it.

[Jayne]

Edge: And still, you make me laugh : )

[Wendy]

I'm all over the place with my feelings on this. I truly am. I have been sexually harassed. It was only 9 years ago. BUT - I've grown alot in those 9 years and I am no longer the same person I was then. So, that being said, ... I'll tell you that I "took it". I took that unprovoked, disgusting sex talk, subtle solicitations, unwanted shoulder rubs, etc etc etc for nearly 2 years. I felt, then, that I HAD to. My husband was self employed, I was working for health care benefits and because we were in a fair amount of debt at the time (building a house, starting a family -- oh, I didn't mention this, but I was pregnant for 9 months of the 2 years of this crap ... he seemed to like that even more.) So, every day, I'd grit my teeth and go off to work. I talked to him as little as possible. Slowly but surely, over time, he must have felt my disgust and anger being shot in his direction, and then the updated S.H. policy came out for a "reminder" to all ... and he stopped. He made me feel I should be grateful to have that job, I had to beg for every cent I ever got in the form of an increase, etc. I was so miserable. My husband was very upset (yes, I had told him some - not all), but I begged him to "let it slide". I NEEDED my job. Now, being who I am at this point in time, I know I wouldn't take it. I don't know HOW I'd handle it, but I wouldn't take it. Maybe all I'd say is "say that to me one more time, and I'll tell your wife." THAT would send him running. There is a woman from my place of employment who is in the middle of a VERY nasty S.H. case right now. She's losing, of course. It's all so disgusting, and I can't help but feel it's the person with the deeper pockets who will win. She's no longer working there, but he is. Anyway - it's hard. And, as a woman growing up in this society, I feel like (due to my own experience) a younger woman has an even MORE difficult time with this -- because younger women are often not yet at the "place" a person my age is -- a place of "You can't treat me like that." Younger women are more apt to 'let it slide' -- IMHO. Do I regret my letting it slide? Sometimes. It's a very difficult thing to think about, to get my head around - mostly because I can't imagine why someone would do that to another, KNOWING they're wrong in doing it. I'm naive. I admit it. But, I'm not stupid.

And, Mr. Reach -- I really don't 'get' you. I didn't say anything before, but ... you talk about respect, you talk about feeling insulted. WHY would you feel insulted that someone disagrees with your choice of party - if YOU are happy with your choice of party? Words can hurt you only if you feel some pang of guilt about them .. no? I mean, the truth hurts. AND - with regard to respect, I did see your post called "When Voices Matter" - it was written in response to feeling insulted by someone else's post. In it you wrote: "Ladies and Gentleman, I am an American Fighting Man. I, and those who have preceded me, fight for American Freedoms. We do not do this for the money, obviously, if you listen to those subversive websites or have common sense; we do not do this for the appreciation of our fellow American Citizens. We do not do this, so we can carry a big gun; if that were true, we would simply move to Texas." So, you disguised your so called respect for ALL under the curtin of being an American Fighting Man, fighting for freedoms, etc - yet you belittle all of Texas by saying what you did. See the irony there? My point is, we all have our opinions - yours apparently is that all Texans want to act tough and carry a big gun - but we all no that isn't true. So, that being said, only those who would feel guilty or ashamed of the truth, would be hurt or insulted by it.

Sorry Jayne .. a long winded comment ...

[Theresa]

There's a difference between being criticized, disliked or treated differently for your choices or beliefs and being discriminated against and oppressed by WHO you are (race, gender, age, sexual orientation, etc.). These latter qualities are completely out of our control. I can't change that I'm a woman, white or 41 years old.

[Boo]

Since you asked, I do think you may be a bit hyper sensitive. I don't know about other women but I can tell when someone is being sincere in a compliment (like Edge, Quietman or Seamus) and when they are being a player or just a downright pain in the ass. The ones who are sincere, I answer them back, just as sincerely. The ones who set off my "creep meter" get the ignore. If they go way overboard on the creep factor then I just tell them up front that I am not interested.

I will agree that I think more men fall into the creep factor than the sincere catagory but I don't think that gap is as severe or wide as you think.

The other thing that factors in is the time invested. Again using Edge as an example (because he is such a fine guy and instinctively knows the lines) Edge will throw a compliment, but it's not followed with a backended comment that makes you feel dirty and robbed. I suspect that he reads womens responses and cues and acts on that (in addition to his own interest). If he's not getting the cues he won't pursue. Some guys just don't get it. We don't want to be begged to, we just aren't interested.

Anyways, now that I have written a long enough comment to be a post I hope that your sensitivity to this subject hasn't cost you what could have been "the relationship" of your lifetime. I would say trust your instincts but don't just assume every guy is trying to get in your pants.

Just sayin